Expert Discussion On Hypervigilance In First Responder Relationships with Cyndi Doyle

Jerry Dean Lund: 0:14

Welcome to Enduring the Badge Podcast. My very special guest today is Cindy Doyle. Cindy's also a podcaster, so we're going to have a really good podcast today because we're going to go back and forth at it with some great content. Cindy, how are you doing this morning?

Cyndi Doyle: 0:30

I am doing fantastic. Only I'm tired of 100 degree weather. I'll be honest. It's supposed to be 108 here again today, so.

Jerry Dean Lund: 0:40

I'm done with it. So you're going from air conditioning to air conditioning.

Cyndi Doyle: 0:44

Yes, yes, that's pretty much it in Texas right now.

Jerry Dean Lund: 0:46

Yeah, Cindy, explain to the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Cyndi Doyle: 0:53

Okay, yeah, sure, so my name is Cyndi Doyle, I'm a licensed professional counselor in Texas and I specialize in working with law enforcement and first responders, as well as their partners individually or as a couple. So that's kind of my area of expertise in my niche, am I also a little? A little, I am also a law enforcement spouse. He's now retired and yeah, that kind of sparked my interest in really getting niched and specialized in working with first responders, mostly because I was lost and confused in my own relationship for a long time. And so after doing some research and we could talk about that later, if you want but after doing some research and kind of figuring out what was really happening to his brain and psychologically and how that was spilling over into our relationship and impacting us, I started my company Code 4 Couples, and that's number four, like Code 4, like everything's cool right, as opposed to Code 3. Actually I was going to say Code 3 Couples and my husband was like I don't think you want your couples in danger all the time yeah fair. So, yeah, code 4 Couples is my company, where I talk all things first responder law enforcement relationship and helping to educate first responders, law enforcement and I niche down to law enforcement, but it's applicable for all first responders and their partners. It was something that I couldn't find because, as a spouse, it was all about like suck it up buttercup, so it didn't work for me, so I started doing the podcast and in 2020, there wasn't enough going on. So that's a joke. That's sarcasm. By the way, I pushed several people pushed me to write my book, and so I'm author of a book called Hold the Line how to Protect your Essential Guide the essential guide for protecting your law enforcement relationship.

Jerry Dean Lund: 2:57

But that can work for right. Essentially all first responders.

Cyndi Doyle: 3:01

All first responders. I've had so many first responders tell me like, yeah, your stories, because I have to incorporate my stories in there because that makes it way more interesting. Your stories are police related because that's where you come from. But I've had military spouses reach out to me and they go oh my gosh, this are you in my house. But then also paramedics and firefighters. I speak to firefighters a lot but they'll be like, yes, all of this is still applicable. But yeah, I did it with a law enforcement slant, mostly because that's my world and I wanted to target them.

Jerry Dean Lund: 3:41

That makes perfect sense, and I think you're right. There's so much that carries over in these professions that the book is very applicable to anyone that's in a first responder and probably even if you're not, you probably still could gain a lot of value out of it, because I think a lot of the principles in there are ones that anybody could use right.

Cyndi Doyle: 4:03

Yeah, some of them for sure, I think what. And people tell me without my podcast. They're like I just like, look something to your podcast because you talk about relationship stuff. But there is a uniqueness in our relationships because of the hypervigilance that comes home and those skills that first responders learn to keep themselves safe on the job. We want them to be safe and those don't. Like it's not some kind of switch where your brain's like, oh, never mind, we don't need to use these now, they're conditioned. It's like that weird thing where your right arm goes out across the passenger to protect them. That kind of thing just kind of spills over and so all of that comes into the relationship. So it's a little different for people that are not maybe first responders or military to read that book and because that kind of stuff like I'm sorry, accountants don't have to sit there and worry about their death on a daily basis, hourly basis. So there are some very unique aspects to our relationships and that's what's really important. So it's educational in the sense of like what's going on? And then the next part of it is, I take the idea of like hey, clinically, this is what makes a strong relationship and this is how it gets all jacked up because of the conditioning that happens. And then the last part of the book is what to do about it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 5:30

So that's, that's awesome. I think it's. You're right, it's very well, it's very needed. I should say right, it's very needed. I think, as a first responder, we may think things don't spill over into home as much as they do and if we probably think that we're probably not listening to our spouses or significant other who is trying to tell us, maybe in some different ways, that this is spilling over, that you know, you can't really flip the switch, at least not for me. When I come home, I can't just instantly flip the switch to be down, regulated and be involved with my family and be a little bit different person. I am very hyper vigilant A lot of times I'm. Lately I'm learning to be less hyper vigilant, but I mean, this is something that we're probably is pretty common, right, right?

Cyndi Doyle: 6:30

right. Well, in the hyper vigilance is a cycle and I'm sure you know that's the best right. So hyper vigilance is a cycle and so what I always say, like what comes up must go down right. And so if at work you're hyper vigilant and you are up here you can't see me, people, but I like have my hands above my head and so like, if you're up, then at home you hit the, you hit the door, and if home is a relatively safe place, which I hope it is for you, then that down your body has to recover. And it takes 18 to 24 hours for the body to recover from that hyper vigilance in good time. That depends on how many cycles you've gone back to back. You know it kind of stretches out, right, but let's just say a one shift. It takes 18 to 24 hours. Well, it's because it's a physical response. The downside at home is it's going to. You're going to look like. You know you're going to grunt, right. My husband wasn't president, like conversations, I would have conversations. He's like I don't know what you're talking about, don't make me make decisions. You know there's this downside that we have to account for. You have to account for if you're a first responder, because it's just biological, so that automatically spills over. And then, you know, you have the idea of like kind of being out in public or being just even out of the house, my husband, sometimes I roll my eyes, even still, you know, even though I know what's going on. Yeah like, we're going to go for a walk. We live out in the country and we're going to go for a walk and he takes, you know, a quote unquote walking stick with him is what he does. It ain't no walking stick, folks, right, it's, and I'm like, really, but he's like, hey, you never know. And there's an aspect, like as a spouse, where I'm like the rolling the eyes aspect and it's probably because, like, people are going to see him as ridiculous, right, because there's that part of me. It's like, really, danger happens everywhere, right, and there's that part of me that's like thankful because I know that he's watching. That doesn't now, that might impact us, right, because then, if you've got your head on a swivel, you're not always going to maybe be directly plugged in, but you know, if we can accommodate that and work around it, it's good. So, yes, we don't want you hyper vigilant all the time. Maybe we just want you in vigilance, you know, maybe I think of those Cooper's colors, right so Cooper's you're familiar with that, right? So the Cooper's colors, and just staying in the yellow, like the yellow's fine, just don't go in the red.

Jerry Dean Lund: 9:16

Yeah, yeah, that's probably easier said than done, depending on your. You know where you work and the type of work you do and you know, and you're right, you know. If I'm always, what, if in everything, then am I really present?

Cyndi Doyle: 9:33

No, yeah, so I thought, but that's what we do all day long, we just drive around and do whatever we're all.

Jerry Dean Lund: 9:41

what? What if in everything?

Cyndi Doyle: 9:43

And then we go back to the station.

Jerry Dean Lund: 9:45

We're still. What if? In everything.

Cyndi Doyle: 9:46

And you know, the thing is is that that's not necessarily unique to professions. Like a lot of professions have that, right. So that would be like, Cindy, cut off your ability to have have deeper communication and want to get to the root of problems, like I, sometimes I go up to my, like my husband and I'll be talking and I'm like I wonder what's underneath that, where is that? And I'll ask one of those questions, right, one of those kind of therapeutic key questions, and my husband's like, quit the, reprising me. So, as much, as as much as it's unique to your profession, as first responders there are, there's a lot of us like teachers, there's a conflict, right, like I'm dealing with little minions running around all day trying to get the, trying to get control, and so teachers many times come home and they're like, stop doing that and they're trying to get control. So some of that is not unique in the sense that, yes, there's a hangover, spillover in professions. It's just that, unfortunately, some of that is not seen or people don't know. I think now we're starting to talk about it way more, I hope, about what, what is actually possible, this is our spillover. I mean, yeah, so some of it just comes with doing something all day, every day. You're, you're going to do it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 11:07

Right, and I think it's probably worse. I mean just hypothetically. It's probably worse if you were Graves or you know shift like that, where you're just you're already in a weird cycle and then you're sleeping for the most part of your day or trying to get some sleep and then, oh, I mean I would think you're probably spilling over more often just because you're not having breaking that cycle that you're talking about or getting that rest cycle.

Cyndi Doyle: 11:34

Yeah, because then you don't have that. The family in a best case scenario. The family is part of the resilience package, right. So family relationships there's actually a statistic out there research that was done, I think it came out 2022, that said, romantic relationships greatly impact a first responders resilience and so like, if you're sleeping during graveyards, right, and you don't get to, and we had a period of time for like five years where we didn't see each other, and it impacts it because then you're not engaging with people that are outside of the community you know as far as your law enforcement or your first responder community. You know other officers or firefighters, and then you also don't get that other kind of nurturing that you want and need to overcome some of the pain that you've endured. So the shifts impact both sides, right, because then we both wind up feeling lonely too, and that contributes. So, yeah, not a fun cycle.

Jerry Dean Lund: 12:50

No, no. I mean, let's just kind of touch on romance in a relationship like I feel like I see far too often not a whole lot of romance in a first responders relationship. Part of it is because I think they right, they don't want to go outside, they don't want to be out in the public with people and stuff like that. They forget maybe that their spouse does or their significant other does yes. So I mean, I feel like it's easy to stuff like cut out the romance. I guess, as a first responder, it's too easy to do it.

Cyndi Doyle: 15:08

Yeah, and it went. Sometimes it can wind up being about having sex as opposed to dating your spouse, if you will, or in. There's things that couples can do, right, because there's sometimes there's just time periods where you're tired, you don't want to go out, and I think spouses can be or supportive partners I try to hit the gamut there, right. So even friends, right. So maybe you don't have somebody romantically, but maybe you have a bunch of friends that really miss you and want to hang out with you and it makes it difficult to go out because of that. This is what people don't understand many times. If I'm conditioned that when I'm at work in public that I need to be aware because there's potential danger all the time, the brain doesn't go. Oh, but this one is for fun and shut that off, right, so your brain is automatically going to go. Oh, that's classical conditioning, right? Bell drool kind of thing right. So you go in public and you become more vigilant because you're aware and it impacts the way you connect, because that means that you're not necessarily president and it can be misinterpreted. So, yeah, I think, from mantic or dating, I'm going to say that, like dating, your partner can get in the way, and so it's important that couples talk about that, like what feels safe, what feels good to go and do, and so those conversations are important. So we might. We took our dog last Monday. We went to the state park and we went swimming. And well, I went swimming with the dog. He didn't get in, he sat on the shore. He's like I don't want to get wet, but we still went right. We went and we went to the park and it was nice and we went on a Monday when a lot of people weren't there, and so that's kind of like talk about where, what environments work, how do we make this where it's a better time. Many times we would go for lunch dates as opposed to dinner dates, mostly because we like to go into Dallas and eat and it's horrible. So kind of looking at that or what kind of dates can you create at home? But many times the spouse wants to get out. Of course, sometimes first responders do too right. They're like let's get out of this house and go do something fun. So I think it's about talking about what works and how do you date your partner as you continue to go through this and you don't slide into the comfort of what it feels more comfortable just to stay at home and let's make some plans. That's the other big tip and technique is like you can't plan in the moment, you have to plan ahead. You have to say like, hey, two weeks from now we're going to go do this thing and put it on the schedule, and that way it can be more about dating. I think a lot of times. I'm going to speed forward just a little bit. I know you didn't ask this, but I think part of it too is really just connecting and understanding your partner's world like understanding each other's world is really important, and so sometimes it doesn't mean that you have to go out and have fun and I won't say have fun, you have to go out and do an event. It can be just connecting in a different way and having deeper, more meaningful conversation. So I think it's really like, as a couple, you have to decide what that connection looks like and create it, be purposeful about it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 18:54

Yeah, and I think if you know your significant other, you'll know what the little things that they like and what they don't like From. Like, my wife and I, every 90 days we go somewhere, even if it's for just a day, overnight we go somewhere, and then you got to do the little things. In between we have date nights. She likes little things like being thoughtful, right. She wants to know that she's being thought of. So flowers or a drink or something, or little notes around the house. I mean, there's lots of little ways to show that you love and care about the person and that you still want that connection because it's kind of like right. If you don't feed that connection, then it just fizzles away and dies and that's really what I think keeps it together.

Cyndi Doyle: 19:47

Like I remember I'm dating myself here, but I remember where I found out how I could send a text message on a pager and I would send nasty little pages to my husband sometimes and he'd be like quit doing that. I'll be in the middle of a call and start laughing and I'm like, wow, but yeah, we did sticky notes. I think it's just being thought of and that you're on my mind and not compartmentalizing it, because that is a skill that's really useful in First Responder World. But you cannot do it with your family. You have to touch base, you have to remember to connect with them along the way. But, yes, gifts. I'm a Cheetos girl, like if you bring me Cheetos. I am a happy clam. It's gotten me in trouble.

Jerry Dean Lund: 20:36

Forget the flowers, bring me Cheetos. There you go. That's easy because they're at every store pretty much.

Cyndi Doyle: 20:41

Right, you could stop a quick trip and buy me some Cheetos.

Jerry Dean Lund: 20:44

There you go. There's a tip. I mean, yeah, what about the? You know, I know this may not be your specialty or whatever like that. But what about the kids in the family? Like, how do we still see connected to our kids?

Cyndi Doyle: 21:01

Yeah, so there's a lot of different ways to do that. I'm like, wow, we're gonna open a whole like tips and tools, and techniques. So, honestly, my favorite app now is Marco Polo. I don't get a kickback from Marco Polo. If you know what Marco Polo is great. But Marco Polo is that app where you send videos back and forth and so it can be like the middle of the night and you're thinking of somebody and you can do a quick video, and so when they wake up they're oh my gosh, here's an app, right? Yeah, I think with the kids you can do a couple different things. It's depending upon the age, right, because you could record stories or do videos of reading them a book and that way they can play it later. Those kinds of things are really helpful to stay connected Little video messages or little audio messages that you can send to the kids or leave from this room and any age, just making time to set aside. So, gottman, john Gottman has done tons of research about what makes relationships work, and some of what he says he's looking at the couple, but I really think it applies to family overall, and he says 20 minutes can make a huge difference, and there's some different aspects. First of all, that 20 minutes is how can I and really with kids, this is what I would do is just 10 minutes of talking to them about what's important to them. No advice, no, you know what you should do? You should kick that kid's butt, right? I don't know if we could swear on here, but you know it's that kind of aspect Don't give advice. Listen to feelings, which is super hard of, just like, oh, that sounds really fresh to me, oh, that sounds really frustrating inside You're going, oh my gosh. But just listening to them about their world and what are they struggling with, what are they interested in? Can they, can you play with them for 10 or 15 minutes If it's a teenager? Connect with them Like what's the newest trends? What's going on with their friends? What game are they into? What book are they reading? What music are they listening to? Like really just trying to attune to what's going on in their world. So you could do like 10, 15 minutes as often as you can and just ask. And if they wanted to ask you questions, that'd be fine. But they see you as a human as opposed to a first responder. That way, right. The second one is always going to be physical touch in some way. So hugs, like meaningful hugs, not side hugging it, you know, just like a hug, right? Kids want hugs, they want attention, they want physical affection. In making sure that you let your kids know, hey, I care about you, I love you. Are you feeling safe? Because kids need two things they need to feel loved, they need to feel safe.

Jerry Dean Lund: 23:54

Yeah.

Cyndi Doyle: 23:54

So is there something that's worrying them? Are they scared about something? Do they want to ask you questions? Just keeping that communication pipeline open facilitates the relationship. Not reacting is the huge like bonus points. And that's hard, because many times you want to react to what your kids are telling you and not reacting and just listening to them and reflecting like oh that's hard. Or thank you for sharing, or what are you going to do about that? Right, Just talking to them in that way and not reacting will make them trust you more, and that's what you want to build.

Jerry Dean Lund: 24:34

Yeah, I'm just thinking in my head. A lot of people are like, okay, but when do I give them advice? Then, if I'm going to listen for 10 minutes and I'm not reacting, or anything like that, when would be the appropriate time to give them?

Cyndi Doyle: 24:47

some advice when they ask for it. So there's a quote that's like unsidlisted advice is criticism and so we have to be careful of that. Now you can ask, you can ask your kids do you want some help with that?

Jerry Dean Lund: 25:03

Yeah.

Cyndi Doyle: 25:04

Do you want to know my thoughts on that? You can ask. Really not giving advice and saying, well, you know what you should, it's always shutting.

Jerry Dean Lund: 25:15

I would say to stop shutting on people.

Cyndi Doyle: 25:17

But it's. Staying away from that facilitates a relationship, because that means I can come to you and you will hear me and I can share without feeling like I need to do something better, I need to be better, I did it wrong or and that's what you want to do, and then, like later on, it's like hey, I thought about that, do you want my thoughts on it? Sometimes it'll be no, okay, and you have to be okay with that. When do I give advice?

Jerry Dean Lund: 25:47

Yeah, Well, I know the questions out there and people are thinking it because you know I'm thinking of myself, so other people are thinking it too. Then that same type of thing could just work in your marriage, right? Or your connection with your other significant other, supportive, supportive spouse. Is that what you say? I don't, I don't.

Cyndi Doyle: 26:11

I say supportive spouse or you know, you can say what you could say significant other or supportive. I say supportive partner is what I've been saying lately because you know that hits the gamut as opposed to spouse significant and hitting them all, Because the thing is is that we have a lot of relationships out there where people are not married, but they are supporting or if there's friends, or if you know, sometimes people still live with their families nowadays, and so sometimes the supportive people are parents, or, you know, girlfriends, boyfriends, whatever. So, yes, for sure. So I had to think about what you asked. Actually, yes, no, you're exactly right. So those types of techniques that came from John Gottman, for sure, and he said what he said 20 minutes. So what that would mean is 10 minutes for each of you. So you're sharing for 10 minutes. So if you were sharing with me and I'm listening to what you're saying, I'm asking, I'm asking questions to find out more. I'm not saying, well, don't you think you could have? You know? You know what you should do. I'm really asking, like, what was that like for you? Or, wait, what do you mean? Tell me more about that. That's like the therapeutic phrase by the way, yes, yes. I had a cop yesterday. He was in session with me and I said, well, have you thought about just asking? Tell me more. And he's like, oh my God, I went to a three day training and that's what the guy told me.

Jerry Dean Lund: 27:39

I was like okay, sorry.

Cyndi Doyle: 27:42

Anyway, but I it's really finding out what that's like for them. What was that experience like? And when I did that with my husband, it got to a point where I knew, like the administrative policies where I'd be like, wait, isn't that against the blah, blah, blah policy? He's like right, even though you know that like what the hell. So I could, I could connect with him and he felt like I got him and supported him, and then vice versa. And sometimes that's difficult for first responders because they're like, because it, and even spouses were, because they're thinking spouses often like my day was nothing compared to what you saw, and so sometimes spouses may struggle to really share what's happening or going on because they think their stuff isn't as big of a deal. Or it might be the other way around, where the first responder is like this is your problem. Like are you kidding me? This is what you're worried about. Do you know what I did today? So we have to be careful of that for each other, that really this is about understanding each other's what's going on, because many times we don't know. Like, if we don't see each other for days at a time, it's not like we sit at I joke with other spouses about this Like we sit at the table at six o'clock and have a conversation what was your cloud and sunshine moment? So we have to open up that communication and stay on top of things Like who's your spouse's best friend at home, at work, in life? Who's their? Who's their enemy right now? Who's their friend of me? Like those are things we need to know right, like who's somebody that they like, but they have to watch their back. So having that conversation as often, as frequently as possible, is helpful. Sometimes that might have to be in a indirect way, where you're sending. We used to send emails, but emails or text messages or video, marco Polo, those kinds of things touching base, because that requires time to think about how do I want to respond or how do I want to connect to my partner. And then the other aspects are things like having a 10 second kiss Cause I think most of the time, a lot of times, we just do the you know thing and go. But really doing a meaningful kiss, I kind of like wrestle my husband down to the ground, cause I'm a physical touch person and I'm like no, you have to give me a real hug.

Jerry Dean Lund: 30:11

And.

Cyndi Doyle: 30:11

I'm like 20 seconds countdown, like I make him like hug me and I think those I know, those things are important. I got my. Those things are important. And then making time to just converse about life and what's going on in the future and what are your thoughts or what are you struggling with and having. I used to call that porch time, because we have multiple porches, although none of them are appealing right now, but you know it's sitting there having a conversation which, once again, mr Research says that if you have conversation over a beverage it's more effective. I think it loosens people up. I don't mean alcohol necessarily, it's just like oh, I have a beverage.

Jerry Dean Lund: 31:00

Yeah.

Cyndi Doyle: 31:03

So all those things are really important to keep feeding the best you can and understand also that you have to Be purposeful again with your time, to set that time aside.

Jerry Dean Lund: 31:20

Yeah, yeah, I mean you're right. Everybody's schedule is so busy, and especially If you have kids that are playing in competition sports and like I don't know what happened to sports these to be fun, and now everybody's gonna be professional athlete and have to be on seven different teams with three practices a day, you know, and tournaments over every single weekend. Oh, and wait during the week too, because your parents must not work and and right so yeah, schedules are busy. I'm not bitter about it by any means, as I could tell.

Cyndi Doyle: 31:55

So Don't know that, you would know that you would know to ask me this. But I think there's one other component that's really important and when you, when we started, you said we'll just have an open and honest conversation, right, and that's something that I think first and there's have to think about the emotional arm, because we Emotionally armor up in order to do what we do. So, as a spouse, I emotionally armor up to let you walk out the door, right, I don't want to think about what can happen, and you emotionally armor up to do what you want you have to do and the fact that also that you have to leave your family behind. So I think we have to think about what's what? Some of that emotional armor we have to take off to have real, maybe even difficult, conversations with each other, because that that's really the connection. You know, you go through some adversity and it creates a deeper, has the potential of creating a deeper connection. But many times we have that emotional armor on and we forgot, we forget to like unstrap it and take it off.

Jerry Dean Lund: 33:05

So yeah, do you what I don't? What do you think about this? What do you think about, like, the visualization of doing that? Do you think that actually just maybe more facilitate to that?

Cyndi Doyle: 33:15

Yeah, I think so. I actually have a process that I recommend when people go home that they think about first of all, they do breathing and they think about, like, reversing that fight-or-flight response. So, whether that's sipping on some water, because that also helps too, so, sipping on water, doing some deep breathing, notifying their Family of like, hey, I'm coming in hot, or hey, good day thumbs up, like some kind of emoji even, would be fine, and then, you know, I could send one back and go, you know.

Jerry Dean Lund: 33:47

Like it was a bad day. The kids are throwing up whatever it is. Yeah, you're walking into.

Cyndi Doyle: 33:52

But I think, mentally, the mindset aspect is really important is to think about, okay, what kind of human, what kind of father, pet owner, parent I said that already um, spouse, partner, do I want to be when I hit the door? And so really thinking about that and getting that in the mindset before you get home, and Then, yes, when you shower off the grime or take off the equipment that you think about, take a minute or two in that moment to think about, okay, what else do I need to shed, what else do I need to leave here? And it doesn't mean that I need to like shed all the calls before I go out. It means, hey, I'm safe, right, it's that safety again. Yeah and if I'm safe, what? What can I do or what do I need to do different when I go out there and I connect, and that's the same thing for the spouse too. It's really why I keep saying purposeful today a whole lot. But yeah, it's really about the mindset and then being purposeful about the mindset for sure.

Jerry Dean Lund: 35:00

Yeah I, when you're thinking about you know like shutting the layers, or to you know the home is a safe place. I'm like, statistically, home is really safe For people. You know what I mean it's, and so I know a lot of people that take extreme levels for protection at home, but I mean I think that causes them maybe to live in a more hyper vigilant state. I mean I take precautions. I think everybody, right, take some level of precautions, you know. But at some point you have to Feel comfortable in your own home, right, right to live there, to be present there, to to do all the things that you want to be for everybody, including yourself. I'm changing conversations a little bit direction a little bit different. So if I'm listening and I'm like, wow, cindy I, these are really really good ideas and tips, but I think I'm, so far, you know, away from any of this and my Supportive partner is thinking about, you know, calling it quits. I don't know what to do. Like I don't think I can even achieve of these things you're telling me Better.

Cyndi Doyle: 36:13

I'm just kidding.

Jerry Dean Lund: 36:14

Yeah.

Cyndi Doyle: 36:16

No, I think so. The thing is is I, people mistake anger For an absence of love, right so many times, and I'm gonna quote Gottman here. So, like, a complaint is a need. Behind every complaint is a need. So if your partner or your spouse is complaining about something, there is a need that's not being met and if you can find that need, then you have like a little wormhole to get in there. You know, I get it because people get so far off track. Also, in my own relationship I didn't even share this but, like in my own relationship, I was shut down like 12 years in. I was like F this I am so tired of being last on his list and Feeling like I don't matter because it felt like but I wasn't saying anything. I just I'm the silent type that like stuffs it down and just has like breeds contempt and resentment. But you know, the thing is is I was being quote-unquote supportive because I wanted to be. I wanted to be supportive for him. But you know I was crying in the bathroom and bitch into my friends all the time is what I was doing, and I wasn't talking to him. I had shut him out, and so I understand, like where that can come from as a spouse, or even as a first responder, because it's like, if, if I'm not as a spouse, if I'm not willing to understand that first responder, or vice versa, then that is probably the first step, like is there something that you have missed along the way? Is there a way that you can with them in regard to what their world is like? Is there? Are they overwhelmed? Are they trying to communicate? It took a lot for me to understand, you know, I had to take my own therapeutic advice is what happens is like oh my crap, maybe something's going on with him that I'm not understanding right. So it's when I started to do that and have some empathy for what the other person was, that I, my mindset changed and I kind of I moved into a different space. So I don't think anything is impossible. You know, when we have indifference, indifference is the opposite of love. So if you're still fighting, there's a chance, because I'm communicating that I need to be heard. I'm communicating that I need something. If somebody's indifferent, then that's when you can really raise the red flag. But if there's, if there's a difference between the two, but if there's, if there's fighting, if there's like you don't understand me, you don't get me, they're communicating something, right, they're really trying to say, hey, I'm off. And if you realize that you're down the wrong path, it's just small steps, like what's one small step? What's a bag of Cheetos that you can go get?

Jerry Dean Lund: 39:12

for your partner, right yeah like and it's, it's um.

Cyndi Doyle: 39:16

I'd be careful of the grand gestures like you know Huge vacations, or bringing home dozens of roses or things like that it's gonna be the small things. What? What's one small thing you can do to connect today? What's one need that they have today? Many times, I think, when we get in those spaces, we start, um, like really looking inward at ourselves and like how we're hurting, as opposed to looking at the other person and saying what can I do? I know that's what I did, um, and when I'm looking at couples this is this is very stereotypical, by the way but when I'm looking at couples, many times Men are saying well, I just want sex, I just want to be in bed with her and and have sex. And she's saying she's saying, you don't ever connect with me, why do I want to have sex? And so it becomes this well, I can't connect because I'm not having a sexual connection with you, and so it's like somebody has to move somewhere. And so many times it's kind of like how can you connect to, how can you attune I'm gonna use that word how can you attune to that person in one tiny, small way? This isn't about taking. You know, I think of eating the whale, right? So you don't, you're not gonna eat the whale. It took you a long time to get where you are and it's gonna take some time to get back. But I'll tell you it's easier to get back To where you were because if there is hope there and your heart wants to you, you know many times it's. It just takes time and repair to do it. So taking those small, all that is really important.

Jerry Dean Lund: 41:01

Yeah, this is the little, the little little gestures that maybe are repetitive right, not repetitive, but happening more frequently starts to like Get you coming back right, like it's you Showing that you care. Trying to make it, trying to make the connection, just doesn't. Yeah, I like that. Not the grand gestures, just the little things.

Cyndi Doyle: 41:23

Yeah, I think there's one other thing that, now that I'm thinking about it, I think there's another thing that's really important is taking ownership. So If, if you've acted like an ass, go on it right. Yeah, if you, if you realize you've been disconnected and preoccupied and not tuned in, go own it, because that is the best way to say, like, look, I haven't been my best self, I haven't been a butt head and I am gonna work on coming back and trying to get back into this family or back into Connecting with you. And here's what my plan is, or here's one thing I'm going to do. I think that what doesn't work is like so what can I do for you? No, you make the decision, and I think sometimes that's a problem in first responder world, because You're so used to taking orders and telling and people telling you what to do, that sometimes taking that initiative feels uncomfortable. So Take ownership. I screwed up, right, I screwed up, or this is what I'm realizing I'm doing, even if you blame the other person, if you want to blame your spouse for being moody or hormonal or whatever you want to say, right, you're preoccupied with the kids. Stop blaming and come back to yourself. What is it that you need to own and what are behaviors that you can do to connect in? But yeah, that ownership is a huge part of repairing damage that's been done. Because I mean, you think about it like we talk about trauma as being these emotional wounds and what I always say is like we'll flip it on the inside out. So what would the body look like if it had gone through? Physically? Gone through, it does right, but physically, if there were wounds and so it's, in your relationship it can be the same thing, like what are the physical wounds that maybe you're feeling and your partner's feeling, and how do you heal that? And maybe that's a good way of thinking about it Is acknowledging and then moving forward too.

Jerry Dean Lund: 43:22

Yeah, yeah. So for your book, hold the Line is like which should both spouses read? It Are supportive partners. I'm gonna try and change that.

Cyndi Doyle: 43:34

You can say spouses, I don't care, it's buying.

Jerry Dean Lund: 43:36

I'm just gonna. I'm trying to change my language to be more appropriate. Don't worry about it.

Cyndi Doyle: 43:42

Our community knows they get it. Yes, it's for so every. All my content is for both sides of the fence because it takes both people understanding right, so I wrote it for both sides In this book. In my book I tell a lot of stories, and some of them are my stories about how I screwed up as a spouse. Some of them are, with my husband's permission, his stories so and he read it and he was like there were some stories that I put in there and he's like God, this guy is an ass.

Jerry Dean Lund: 44:15

And then he's like but that was me right.

Cyndi Doyle: 44:19

So it's written for both. The information in there it's research-based, which is really important for me that this isn't just like some fluffy book. It's research-based. But I was also chastised to not make it too long, so it's less than 200 pages, so people will read it. But, yes, it's helpful for one or both. I have had one or the other read it and be able to make big differences in their relationship, but of course it's always impactful for both, right? So when we think of I'll use a common book in my world, which is Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement, so Gilmarten's book. If both people read it, you're like, oh okay, so how do we do this together? And it's the same thing for mine. It's not a spouse book, it's not an officer-based book. It's a book about information that everybody needs to have if they're gonna have a relationship, even if you're single.

Jerry Dean Lund: 45:21

Yeah, that's probably super important to read it if you're single, especially if you're new to the first responder world and getting into it, because, wow, people change. Not every single person that I've ever seen come into the first responder world changes.

Cyndi Doyle: 45:39

Absolutely yeah. How can you not? Based upon what you do on a daily basis. Right, it changes you. Your brain and your body has to adjust for that all the time and it's unreasonable it was unreasonable for me to think that I used to tell them just turn it off.

Jerry Dean Lund: 45:54

Yeah, no that's not a thing, right.

Cyndi Doyle: 45:56

So it's unreasonable to believe that you won't change. It's an understanding what the change is going to be, and I always say how to counter the impact, because you're going to be impacted. It's just a matter of are you gonna let it drive you or are you going to attempt to drive it in a way that works for you?

Jerry Dean Lund: 46:17

Yeah, and I ask you this question. I honestly don't know if you know the answer, but maybe you do Like. So what is your thought on the rate of divorce rate for first responders or law enforcement or whatever?

Cyndi Doyle: 46:29

Whoa, good question. I do know the answer to this, so there's a lot of misinformation out there. I have a podcast on it, by the way, it's also in my book. There's a lot of misinformation out there, like the law. Well, I'm gonna ask you what do you think the divorce rate is?

Jerry Dean Lund: 46:47

pop quiz 46% comes into my head.

Cyndi Doyle: 46:52

Oh, okay, all right, all right. So a lot of times what I get is 75,. These really high numbers. Yeah, I've heard that, yeah, and I'm one of those people on social media that if you post that, I will start posting research articles underneath it. Yeah, that was a thing. So in actuality, dang, I can't remember. I think it was in the 60s. They did some research and back then the divorce rate was way different. The most recent article now you've got to take this into consideration the most recent research specifically on law enforcement or any kind of first responder relationships is 2010. So we don't nobody wants to. It's interesting because there's no. Like, what kind of divorce rate do veterinarians have? Like, no one of you kind of looked at that kind of de-dive research and where are you going to get? And I'm gonna say this for a reason. So they did it based upon the census and looking at, based upon all other professions, what is the divorce rate compared to all other professions? And so law enforcement was actually below the national average, and the national average is around 50%. So you're about right that we don't have a hard number. Now here are some anecdotal not anecdotal, but maybe some other aspects to this. First of all, we don't have as many people that marry early on, so our marriages look different than they did way back. When People wait to get married. Some people just never get married, so that kind of influences it one way or the other. My personal thought is that I think we are stubborn. It's couples that many first responder couples are so used to doing the hard thing, by letting you go and do your thing and me doing my thing, and then we figure it out together that I think our honeymoon period could last longer because we don't see each other. But I also think, just like we're stubborn, we are used to doing hard stuff because we have to do it on a daily basis and so many times what I find is like couples stay married but they're not really like happy sometimes in their relationship.

Jerry Dean Lund: 49:28

Yeah.

Cyndi Doyle: 49:30

I think it also depends upon your culture at work and whether or not relationships are supported or whether or not it's common practice to go have affairs, because some departments it's like well, I only had one affair. So I think it depends upon a lot of different things, but there's not actual, there's not recent research on that, but the most recent research shows that there's not as many as we think. Weirdly, out of all first responders, jailers have the higher divorce rate.

Jerry Dean Lund: 50:09

Interesting, interesting. I always wonder. Like there's these statistics out there for a lot of different things, but when it comes to first responder world, that's really not studied. Like there's the statistic about domestic violence in-.

Cyndi Doyle: 50:24

Oh, I know that one too.

Jerry Dean Lund: 50:26

You do? Okay, do tell me, because I only know some super old research.

Cyndi Doyle: 50:31

So and that's probably it. So the super old research I think was from the 70s.

Jerry Dean Lund: 50:37

Yes.

Cyndi Doyle: 50:38

Yes, and that was with a specific department. I was not even in a department like a unit, a division in Baltimore and it was just a really small population and they did that research and they tried to duplicate it. There have been multiple times that they have tried to duplicate that research about domestic violence and they have never been able to duplicate that research. So there is as far as the statistic, like how many are in domestic violent relationships. I do think that there are, just like any population, there are things to watch for and I think we need to be aware of, like I think there's a thin line between authoritarian spillover and coercive control. So there's, when you're used to having authority, that can bleed over and, as my friend Tabby Westbrook says, who is an expert in domestic violence, she's like manslaughter or murder. The result's the same.

Jerry Dean Lund: 51:49

Yeah.

Cyndi Doyle: 51:51

It can be unintentional, it's still a problem. So I think we need to talk about it in our communities. I think we need to bring awareness to it. I think we need to have conversations with her and to say does this feel like abusive to you? Sometimes I can come in like kind of strong and heavy Does that feel unsafe to you? And have those conversations, because I think a lot of times it's not intentional, it's the physical part we're getting the control can be damaging. But there's like I'm looking at my bookshelf because there's a whole book on it that's based upon BS research and that kind of stuff pisses me off that we're just going to make white sweeping write a whole book about. It's called police wife and like it's all about this bad research, which I know the person you work for is very passionate about making sure research is on the up and up.

Jerry Dean Lund: 53:00

Yeah, yeah, cause I think so. When I teach a class in peer support and I ask the question about domestic violence in relationships, I'm gonna ask you what do you number? Do you think they say 10%.

Cyndi Doyle: 53:19

Do they think it's low? I think they think it's low.

Jerry Dean Lund: 53:22

No, they think it's high. Oh, they do think it's high. I've heard as high as 80%.

Cyndi Doyle: 53:27

What? So? They're like looking at the 10 people in the room and they're like are they able to that? Don't beat our wives.

Jerry Dean Lund: 53:34

What? Yeah, as high as 80%. Quite often it's between 60 and 80%, wow.

Cyndi Doyle: 53:44

See once again. It's a myth many times yeah.

Jerry Dean Lund: 53:50

So research is important Because if you, I feel like sometimes let's say that that's not the correct number, right, that's, 80 percent is not the correct number and you keep putting maybe that out there, then puts maybe a seed in people's mind that maybe that we should all be in the situation, and it's acceptable to be in the situation like that, since 80 percent of the other people are in the same situation.

Cyndi Doyle: 54:20

Yeah, yeah and for sure. And when we're looking at domestic violence, there's so much to consider and there are, I mean, there are situations and we need to educate people on how to call each other out. I think, like making that a thing, like hey, this isn't okay, and spouses have a little bit of an extra hard time trying to feel safe and then speaking up. I also don't want to like, don't forget, it can go the other way around, y'all Right. It can go the other way around. You can have a female spouse who is being emotionally abusive and gaslighting the crap out of you. So I don't want to make it gender specific either, because women are just as bad sometimes. So sometimes women can be just as bad, and so I don't want to minimize the fact that, as a first responder, it's very possible that you are in a relationship that doesn't work, especially because first responders are helpers, right? Yeah, so many times you're going in, maybe you saw somebody that needed quote, unquote rescuing and maybe that relationship is not a healthy one. So don't be scared to look at it for what it is. Examine the facts, is what I say. Like, what are the facts? And if this was your bestie or your kid coming to you like. Would this be acceptable?

Jerry Dean Lund: 55:42

Yeah, yeah, definitely, Cyndi. Where can people find you? Where can people like get your book, listen to your podcast, all that great stuff.

Cyndi Doyle: 55:53

All the things, so all my things all my things are code 4 couples. www.code4couples.com that is the website, my Instagram, I don't know. Facebook and Instagram are kind of the same. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, it's harder. It's Cyndi Doyle LPC, I think is what it is. I'll give you those later. The book is Hold the Line, your Essential Guide Protecting your Law Enforcement Relationship, and that is available on most online retailers. So the one with the happy smile, Amazon or Barnes Noble. And then one of my friends recently said you're in Australia, which is like it's not good reads but it's. I mean, if any of these in Australia, just hit me up and I'll let you know where that is, but it's Booktopia or something like that. So I was like, hey, I'm international. Podcast is the same thing, I'm on all the platforms that I can think of. So, yeah, just remember, code 4 couples.

Jerry Dean Lund: 56:54

Yeah, that's awesome, Cyndi. Thank you so much for being on today and I hope the listeners were able to get some great tools from you on how to have a just all around better relationship with your supportive partner kids, parents, whoever that surrounds you just to have a better relationship, but especially if it's some intimate partner.

Cyndi Doyle: 57:20

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on, I appreciate it.

Jerry Dean Lund: 57:22

Yeah, thank you.